Talk:Daniel Defoe

Old conversations un-titled

The addition of "spy" to Defoe's professions seems a good one, but someone has rushed in to take it out saying (a) it is not mentioned in the main text (it is--"[the] leading Minister and spymaster in the English Government. Harley accepted Defoe's services" --though certainly more could be said) and (b) it is open to debate (it is not).

Does anyone know a repectable source that denies Defoe was a spy? To offer a few that do not doubt it:

Oxford Dictionary of National Biography: "Defoe became one of Harley's agents and an opinion sampler. Over the next three years he extended the possibilities of counter-insurgency, invented practices that survive to the present day, and earned the reputation of master spy"

Bastian, p. 214: "Defoe ... was now anticipating the role he was to play nine years later ... that of a government spy"

Drabble, Companion to English Literature: "Harley ... employed him as a secret agent"

but perhaps we can defer to Defoe himself: "In This Little scheme of their Affaires I have Acted as a _True spy_ to you" (Letter to Harley, January 4, 1707). Pauldu 23:17, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Malo has added back the details of Defoe's gravestone, arguing "re-added gravestone info, it demonstrates that he accepted a name, varied from his birthname". The gravestone was erected on September 16, 1870 (not, as Novak suggest, 1871--See the Times (London) for 15 & 17 September 1870). Consequently, it is hard to know what light it can throw on Defoe's use of his name in 1690. I have, however, left the comment in because Malo seems to think it important. It is perhaps worth remembering that, even were the gravestone original, we do not always get to annotate our own graves. The reinsertion suggests that there is some doubt whether Defoe accepted the name Defoe during his lifetime. As he was referred to by others as Defoe, and, signed himself Defoe, and when (nomes de plum aside) he chose to use his name in his writing, often used De Foe or Defoe (see, eg, "Advertisement from Mr De Foe to Mr Clark" (1710), it is probably unnecessary to summon extra evidence from beyond the grave.

I'm slowly trying to edit this page, reflecting for example the biographies by Bastion (_Defoe's Early Life_ (Macmillan, 1981)) and Novak (_Daniel Defoe: Master of Fictions_ (Oxford, 2001)) as well as Defoe's own works. The original article had the date of birth and death exact, whereas they are both open to doubt. Defoe gave varying accounts of his age--though admittedly he was silent about his death. The place of birth was wrong. To say Defoe rose to fame with Crusoe is like saying Shakespeare rose to fame with Hamlet. Defoe was not born in Stoke Newington; his father was not a butcher, and Daniel did not use Defoe merely as a nom de plume. The statue over his grave was erected in the 19th century, so it is not relevant. There is said to have been a brass plaque on his coffin when it was exhumed. Omissions aside (eg of Defoe's economic journalism), these were the problems with the first two paras. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.117.149.7 (talk • contribs) 21:59, 12 October 2005.

Sources vary as to date of death. Some say April 24 or 26. http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/defoe.htm says both.

I am really sorry to have had to correct Stroke Newington (-r) as it gave me a good laugh! :) Nevilley 23:45 Jan 9, 2003 (UTC)

Please verify his death date. Most say either Apr 24 or 26. Mandel 07:28, Sep 4, 2004 (UTC)

Added detail of Defoe's Review. Rawdon 10:44, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

media source

You've got some attention from UC Berkeley. "My corrections were undone by people who clearly had little idea what they were talking about almost as quickly as they were made by me (who knew a little of what he was talking about).". - BanyanTree 03:11, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

"The minute I got to [the text stating] which book made him famous — and while I'm English, I'm no expert in Defoe — I knew it was wrong." That's funny, because I see no text saying which book made him famous, either in today's (Jan. 19, 2006) version or or the October 2005 version. It says "[Daniel Defoe] gained enduring fame for his novel Robinson Crusoe." I strongly suspect that most English speakers would only recognize Defoe through RC; the Esperanto article mentions two or three translations of Robinson Crusoe, but no other works of Defoe, and a quasi-random sampling of the Library of Congress catalog turned up a number of translations of RC into French, German and Japanese, but no obvious translations of any of Defoe's other works.--Prosfilaes 03:25, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

The quote: "My corrections were undone by people who clearly had little idea what they were talking about almost as quickly as they were made by me (who knew a little of what he was talking about)." doesn't seem to capture the true reality of the edit history of this page. Of all the changes made by Duguid only one was reverted (regarding the grave stone), and that was eventually reverted again to Duguid's version. So it seems more like all of his corrections were not undone. Qutezuce 23:45, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

This series of edits received attention again on Fresh Air interview with Geoffrey Nunberg. Basically the gist was when the Berkeley prof saw the Defoe page, the first two sentences had five errors, and after going through the revision process, resulted in nine errors. Huangdi (talk) 21:28, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

in response

The last point is absolutely right. I apologize. "My corrections" is misleading. Two corrections were undone -- the gravestone and the spy. One correction was not by me. I should have made that clear. Nevertheless, as I tried to show in the discussion, Defoe was indeed a spy.

The first point is not quite right, however.

"The minute I got to [the text stating] which book made him famous — and while I'm English, I'm no expert in Defoe — I knew it was wrong." That's funny, because I see no text saying which book made him famous, either in today's (Jan. 19, 2006) version or or the October 2005 version.

There is, of course, no single "October 2005 version"; there are many.

The version of 22.10 on October 11, 2005, says, as the page had said for some time,

who first gained fame for his novel Robinson Crusoe.

It is almost certainly true that "most English speakers would only recognize Defoe through RC", but that is beside the point. How we remember Defoe has nothing to do with how he first gained fame. He was quite famous long before RC was published, which was the point I was trying to make.

Indeed, back in 2002 <Revision as of 17:46, 10 September 2002> the article had the reasonable comment: "He is most famous for his novel" RC. And in 2004 <Revision as of 18:17, 30 January 2004> it said, equally reasonably, "He became a famous pamphleteer, journalist and novelist"; by October 2004 that had been changed to "became famous for" RC and in November that was changed to "first became famous" ... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Pauldu (talk • contribs) .

External links

Hi, I would like to add an external link to the World of Biography entry

• probably the most famous portal of biography to this article. Does anybody have any objections?

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jameswatt (talk • contribs) 14 April 2006 (UTC)

This user has added similar requests to link to biographies hosted on the same site to about 50 different articles. Although I believe that these requests were made in good faith, adding the links to all of the articles would be spamming. In addition, the biographies tend to be not very insightful and/or minimally informative, and the webpages contain Google AdSense links.

A fuller explanation of my own opinion on these links can be found here, if anyone wishes to read it.

Hbackman 00:47, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Anyone have a source?

I've just been doing a school report an Defoe, basically an analysis of his writing style. While looking through the article I saw that it claims that "there is evidence that his financial dealings were not always honest." I'd just like someone to check and see if they can find a source for that, as I've not seen it anywhere else, and I've probably looked through three or four biographies for my report. Not extensive research, but they all seem to agree he was in debt because he was so eager to invest in multiple businesses that when his investments hit hard times he lost a lot of money. Just wanted to check on that.--Az 03:50, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

stylistic question

Is it necessary and proper to italisize the phrase "five hundred" in the first paragraph? It is an impressive score, but should wikipedia be the body to emphasize that impressiveness? --Amanaplanacanalpanama 22:26, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Robert Drury

I feel that there should be mention made of Robert Drury and the possibility that he was as much of a source for 'Robinson Crusoe' as Selkirk ever was. Drury was from Stoke Newington, where Defoe lived, and was shipwrecked on Madagascar for many years. His subsequent account of his adventures, though once thought to be by Defoe himself, has now been accepted as authentic. Mike Parker Pearson's recent book 'In search of the red slave : shipwreck and captivity in Madagascar' gives a good account of what happened to Drury.

Edinburgh Courant

There is evidence of Defoe serving as editor of the Edinburgh Courant in the early 18th Century. I'm not sure where this should be added.

Another media mention

There's a good article in First Monday, which mentions this page and some issues with it - also referring to previous activities/discussions. It would probably be worth taking a look. Cheers. Cormaggio ^{is learning} 11:07, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Roxana

"She appears as a whore, bigamist and thief, lives in The Mint, commits adultery and incest, yet manages to keep the reader's sympathy."

Is there any way we can rephrase that? Who is the reader? Maybe she doesn't keep her or his sympathy?

Christian anarchist?

The article has a "see also" link to Christian anarchism; the word "anarchism" isn't mentioned anywhere else in the Defoe article, nor is he mentioned in the Christian anarchism article. Is it safe to call Defoe a Christian anarchist? If so, a section on these views should be added to the article, with sources cited. It's not very encyclopedic to just imply the fact with a "see also." --Trevor Burnham 07:03, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Founder?

I added a {{Fact}} to the intro claim that some sources credit Defoe as a "founder" of the English novel. I am not disputing that the intent here is probably correct. I'm a bit doubtful of the word "founder" - makes it sound like the English novel is a corporation or something. If someone can point out this particular usage in a secondary text, I'll be fine with it. Applejuicefool 20:24, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Here is one. I'm sure there are many others. I don't think it is particularly unusual that we need to cite specific authors on it though. -- Stbalbach 16:52, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

As I said, I am debating simply the usage of the particular word "founder". The source at the link you posted above does not include the word "founder" - I did a search for it in that book. It's not there. Defoe might be considered the "Father" of the English novel. He might be considered the "originator" of the English novel. I just think "founder" is semantically the wrong word, and would like to see a source that uses that word. Applejuicefool 17:46, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

If you look at the exact page that comes up when you click on the link, it says that "Defoe, arguably, founded the English novel." That's semantically the same root word.--Prosfilaes 21:59, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Bookburning

Why was he put on the catholic church index (Vatican's list of banned books)? This is not explained in the article. 193.226.227.153 14:26, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I couldn't find Defoe in the Index of 1559, maybe because the names are in Latinate. "Political history of the devil, as well ancient as modern" is listed in the "Index Librorum Prohibitorum, Anno 1946", the final Index which was in force until 1966. The work was heretical (ie, contrary to the teachings of the Catholic Church).

Defoe's works were often banned. For example, "Moll Flanders" fell under the US's Comstock law of 1873. It was outside the rules of libraries in Nazi Berlin and thus probably burned in one of the infamous bonfires.

You write as though it is remarkable for an author to be banned. Unfortunately, it isn't. All major philosophers, most notable novelists and all translators of the Bible have been banned. Notable living English-language authors Amy Tan, Isabelle Allende, Anne Rice, Stephen King, JK Rowling, Jean Auel, Charles Frazier, Alice Walker, Toni Morrison and Annie Proulx have works banned from some of the USA's libraries. Even scientists such as Galileo, Newton and Darwin have had their major works banned. Gdt (talk) 06:44, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Standard Defoe biography

The standard and most authoritative Defoe biography is Paula Backscheider's. It should be referenced, if not quoted, extensively here. It should also be in the Bibliography. Awadewit 11:12, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Date of death

The intro and the main text disagree on his date of death. Anyone have a source to confirm which is correct? --OpenToppedBus - Talk to the driver 13:38, 13 November 2007 (UTC) It depends on which calendar you choose to adopt. The last day of the Julian calendar was Thursday October 4, 1582 but only Catholic countries adopted the Gregorian calendar. Britain adopted the Gregorian calendar only in 1752. This is why the dates here differ.

This is not made clear in the text and this inconsistency should be resolved to avoid confusion.Belcanti (talk) 17:05, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

How is Stevenson an "early critic"?

Early critics, such as Robert Louis Stevenson, admired it, saying that the footprint scene in Crusoe was one of the four greatest in English literature, and most unforgettable

Stevenson was born 131 years after Robinson Crusoe's publication. I'd think an "early critic" would reasonably considered to be one who reviewed the book around the time it was published. At the very least, in this case it should be reserved for eighteenth century critics. Stevenson was obviously an earlier critic than us, but he's closer to us than he is to Defoe (he's 130 years older than me, for instance, and 190 years younger than Defoe.) john k (talk) 19:05, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Thomas Cochrane

I stumbled across an edit removing the wikilink to Cochrane in reference to the pillory. The link was correct as Cochrane was indeed sentenced to the pillory before having this part of his sentence commuted. However the quote by Moore (probably writing in 1962 or 71) says "no man ever stood in the pillory and later rose to eminence" so the mention of Cochrane in the article is perhaps superfluous as he never stood in the pillory - Dumelow (talk) 23:39, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

It can't refer to the Thomas Cochrane you linked to - Thomas Cochrane, 10th Earl of Dundonald (1775–1860) as he is from a later era - perhaps it is an earlier Earl of Dundonald that can be checked with the source. --mervyn (talk) 09:05, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Sorry I misread this - it is not a reference to someone who was a contemporary of the Defoe incident but a ref to a much later event which did involve Thomas Cochrane, 10th Earl of Dundonald. Chronological relationship needs to be clarified if it is to be retained. --mervyn (talk) 09:09, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

To be honest I do not think it is worth retaining as it is not an exception to Moore's comment and adds little to the article. However this is well out of my area of expertise so I'll leave the decision to those more knowledgeable in this area. In the meantime I have corrected a minor error introduced to that part when I re-added the link - Dumelow (talk) 17:56, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Daniel Defoe was born as Daniel Foe

Daniel Defoe was born Daniel Foe, he added the De later on in life.

Says so in the introduction of a compilation of Daniel Defoe in Barnes and Noble

"Compilation copyright 2007 by Barnes & Noble, Inc."

76.181.233.103 (talk) 01:20, 21 January 2009 (UTC) Alexander DiCenzo

On the register of his marriage in 1683 his name was written as Daniel ffoe, and on the register of the baptism of his daughter Sophia in 1701 it was written as Daniel de foe. Whitespeck (talk) 22:13, 25 May 2013 (UTC) whitespeck

Death

The article begins by suggesting Defoe died on April 24; it ends by asserting that he died on April 26. As this is an article that had drawn some attention, it might be wise to keep it consistent. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.130.85.131 (talk) 01:34, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

How the hell does an article get FEATURED when it can't even get the date of death straight? 67.211.239.242 (talk) 16:27, 3 June 2009 (UTC)DTK

Capt. Charles Johnson

Capt. Charles Johnson was the listed author of A General History of the Pyrates, and only reputed scholarship claims Defoe as using a pseudonym (see Charles_Johnson_(pirate_biographer).

Therefore, the following should be removed from the Bibliography section: Daniel Defoe, A General History of the Pyrates ISBN 0-486-40488-9 (Dover Publications, 1999) (contains the text on Libertatia, a pirate utopia)

And perhaps the following should be added to the "Later life and writings" section following the first sentence: Literary scholars are currently re-assessing the hundreds of works credited to Defoe that were either published anonymously or were thought to be authored by Defore working under a pseudonyum. One such work is A General History of the Robberies and Murders of the most notorious Pyrates by Charles_Johnson_(pirate_biographer)

the citation could be:

http://www.worldcat.org/isbn/0300041195

http://www.jstor.org/pss/517417

http://www.bonaventure.org.uk/ed/johnson.htm

I don't know how to make citations.

Re the author and name Charles Johnson -

Charles Johnson (minus the title of "Captain") is reputed to be a hack writer who was responsible for the authorship of a play about Captain Avery and who may well be the real author of The King of The Pirates, a book about Avery. The use of his name with the title "Captain" in this book is possibly satirical. It was removed after the first edition. Whitespeck (talk) 23:19, 7 June 2013 (UTC)whitespeck

Kreutzer?

Here it says that his father changed his name from Kreutzer. I can find no other citation for this. Is it true? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 07:03, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

incomplete bibliography

The bibliography is woefully inadequate. Duncan Campbell after all isn't included.

Philologick (talk) 23:25, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

Birth & death dates for Daniel Defoe

We have this in the lead:

Daniel Defoe (/ˌdænjəl dɪˈfoʊ/; 13 September 1660 – 24 April 1731),<ref>According to [[Paul Duguid]] in [http://firstmonday.org/htbin/cgiwrap/bin/ojs/index.php/fm/article/view/1405/1323 "Limits of self organization"], ''[[First Monday]]'' (11 September 2006): "Most reliable sources hold that the date of Defoe's birth was uncertain and may have fallen in 1659 or 1661. The day of his death is also uncertain."</ref>

@Levi Gonzalez: You posted a birth date without verification from a reliable source. There is an existing source that says both Defoe's birth & death dates are uncertain. Please provide a citation or we will need to remove your assertions as unverified.

Peaceray (talk) 18:56, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

Peaceray there is little to explain, just take a look at his contributions: in order to have accurate birth dates, he simply removes the "circa" and/or adds fake days and months, without providing any source. Khruner (talk) 19:58, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

Khruner Ugh! Thanks for the heads up. Judging by Special:Contributions/Levi_Gonzalez, there's a lot to clean up. Peaceray (talk) 21:00, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

Was Crusoe inspired by Selkirk?

The article says that it has often been assumed Defoe was inspired by Crusoe, but 'his experience is inconsistent with the details of the narrative'. Does this really refute the inspiration story? I mean you could argue The Martian is inspired by either of these stories, yet obviously the details of its narrative are not consistent with either, I mean its set in space!. If Defoe knew about Selkirk before he wrote the book, it must surely be hard to argue it did not feature as inspiration. LastDodo (talk) 11:56, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Anti-sodomy writings

Daniel Defoe moralised against "sodomites" and molly houses in his A Review of the State of the British Nation on 7 November 1707 (vol. iv, no. 124, pp. 495–6). It would be good to see some mention of that here. — OwenBlacker (he/him; Talk; please {{ping}} me in replies) 19:39, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

Possibly useful source, for the interested

Publishers and Hack Writers: Signs of Collaborative Writing in the "Defoe" Canon, Journal of Information Ethics. The author has also published on Shakespeare authorship. @CambridgeBayWeather and @Rjensen, pinging you since I saw you in the edithistory. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:03, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

I would take anything by that author with a very large pinch of salt. DuncanHill (talk) 10:07, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

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English defoe and the rise of the novel

Defoe and the rise of the novel

2409:4065:499:A79D:4021:94F9:3134:1E19 (talk) 12:56, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

 Not done It is unclear what change you are proposing. Peaceray (talk) 21:39, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

English litrature

10 line about life and works of daniel defoe 115.187.42.70 (talk) 16:01, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

 Not done It is unclear what you want done. Peaceray (talk) 19:12, 23 January 2024 (UTC)