Talk:May Revolution

Cleanup

The timeline section of the article seems to have been translated from Spanish with the help of a Spanish-English dictionary, but without the help of a thorough understanding of English. Unfortunately, I don't know enough about the subject (and don't know the source text), so I can't figure out what was meant in a number of places. --Carnildo 03:18, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

Seems to have come from es. - mako 05:49, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

State exactly what you don't get, and I might be able to help (I did the original translation from es:Revolución de Mayo. SpiceMan 07:03, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Mako's cleanup seems to have answered everything. --Carnildo 07:35, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:May Revolution/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Ironholds (talk) 20:24, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Lead

Resolved comments

* Done "but still ruled in the name of the Spanish King Ferdinand VII of Spain" - "of Spain" is rather irrelevant since you've got Spanish King.  Done "The conquest of Seville, that took place in February 1, 1810" - "The conquest of Seville, which took place on February 1, 1810"  Done "attempt from Cisneros to conceal the news" - "attempt by Cisneros to conceal the news"  Done Link Criollo  Done "motivating later a war between those that did and those that don't" "motivating a later war between those that did and those that did not"

•  Done "was confirmed, and May "- "was confirmed, to May" - out of interest, what numbering system is used in former Spanish colonies, May 18 or 18 May?
  • Im not sure about the date format. Mephiston999 (talk) 02:04, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
•  Not done "The president of the Junta designated after it was Cisneros" - designated after what?
  • It's clear from the context: after the Open Cabildo and the result.
    • Then say "designated that the Open Cabildo". Ironholds (talk) 02:28, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
      • That can't be done. As it is explained in greater detail in the respective sections, the Junta with Cisneros was made after the Open Cabildo and its result, but it wasn't what the Open Cabildo had decided. It was a political trick to keep him in power despite of the adverse result. To say that Cisneros was designated by the Open Cabildo would be highly inaccurate. I have reworded the sentence instead. MBelgrano (talk) 13:12, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
        • 'Second opinion rewrite of The May Revolution involves the events that took place during a week known as "may week" (Spanish: Semana de Mayo), that spans from May 18, when the defeat of the Junta of Seville was confirmed, to May 25, when Viceroy Cisneros was ousted from office. The conquest of Seville, which took place in February 1, 1810, was known in Buenos Aires by May, when British ships arrived with newspapers. After a failed attempt by Cisneros to conceal the news, a group of Criollo lawyers and military organized an Open Cabildo to decide the fate of the viceroyalty. It took place on May 22 at the Buenos Aires Cabildo and the result was to end Cisneros's mandate and replace him with a Junta. However, the president of the Junta designated afterwards was Cisneros, which motivated a high level of popular unrest, as Cisneros would remain in power, even if under a new title. This was seen by most of the involved parties as detracting from the results of the Open Cabildo. Cisneros finally resigned on May 25, and another Junta was designed instead. The Primera Junta requested other cities to join them, motivating a later war between those that did and those that did not, and later against Spanish armies themselves. Along with similar events at other cities in the Spanish South America, the May Revolution was one of the starting points of the Spanish American wars of independence.
        • The May Revolution includes the events that took place during a week known as "may week" (Spanish: Semana de Mayo), that spans the period from May 18, when the defeat of the Junta of Seville was confirmed, to May 25, when Viceroy Cisneros was ousted from office. The conquest of Seville, which took place in February 1, 1810, became known in Buenos Aires by May, when British ships arrived with newspapers. After a failed attempt by Cisneros to conceal the news, a group of Criollo lawyers and military organized an Open Cabildo to decide the fate of the viceroyalty. It took place on May 22 at the Buenos Aires Cabildo and the result was to end Cisneros's mandate and replace him with a Junta. However, the designated president of the Junta was Cisneros, which incited a high level of popular unrest, as Cisneros would remain in power, even if under a new title. This was seen by most of the involved parties as detracting from the results of the Open Cabildo. Cisneros resigned on May 25, and another Junta was designed. The Primera Junta requested that other cities join them, motivating a later war between those that did and those that did not, and later against Spanish armies themselves. Along with similar events at other cities in Spanish South America, the May Revolution was one of the starting points of the Spanish American wars of independence. Jezhotwells (talk) 23:56, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

International causes

•  Done "a short time before" is unneeded.
•  Done "criollos" - link
•  Done "and with unalienable rights to life" - "and had unalienable rights to life"
•  Done "During it" - "During the Revolution,"
•  Done "were Voltaire, Jean-Jacques Rousseau, Montesquieu, Denis Diderot and Jean Le Rond d'Alembert; while the most notorious economic liberal was Adam Smith" - replace that semicolon with a comma
•  Done "The falling consensus about the divine right being legitimate gave room to monarchies being replaced by republics in France and the United States, but also to constitutional monarchies, such as in Great Britain." - needs to have an inline citation. The entire paragraph is citing a single source; is this source valid for all the text, or are more needed?
  • Which is exactly the statement that needs referencing? That France and the United States formed Republics and Britain a Constitutional monarchy? That absolutist monarchies were falling because people did not accept any longer the idea that their rulers were designated by God and then allowed to do just anything? They seem like trivial facts, simple common knowledge, to justify refeences, but I can provide if needed.
    • The latter. Saying that the reason for absolutist monarchies falling out of favour was because of the death of the "ordained by god" idea is not a "trivial fact" or "simple common sense". Ironholds (talk) 04:34, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
•  Done "Such blockade started" - "Such blockades started"
•  Done "to France" - "on France"
•  Done "disrupt the power of Spain on their overseas colonies" - "disrupt the power of Spain over their overseas colonies"
• "The Industrial Revolution started in Britain" - when?
  • By that time. As far as I know, there's no answer to "when?", it's a process and there's no turning point to say that the Industrial Revolution starts at a certain given date or moment. Or is there?
•  Done "commerce with any other European country" - "trade with any other European country"
•  Done "Thus, England needed that the Spanish colonies ended having the usual restrictions of commerce only with their own metropoli" - very confusing, suggest rewriting.
• "For this end they tried to conquer key cities during the British invasions, and after it to promote their emancipation" - "to this". Which invasion? When? Whose emancipation?
  • They are linked. They are the "British Invasions to the Río de la Plata", and when bibliography refers to them among a bigger text they are known simply as "British Invasions". Providing years would be distracting: that part of the text is not about the Invasions (described with more detail at the next section) but about the bigger image, the context and policy of Britain towards Spanish South America. Again, "whose emancipation" is clear from the context: emancipation of the key cities that they tried to conquer.
•  Done "authors that proposed a liberal economy," - "authors who"
  • They are named just after that quote
    • No, you're misunderstanding. It should be "authors who proposed", not "authors that proposed". Ironholds (talk) 04:34, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
• "Shortly before the Spanish King Charles IV abdicated due to the mutiny of Aranjuez " - shortly before what?
  • Shortly before the events that were described before that sentence.
•  Done "requested Napoleon to be restored to power." - "requested that Napoleon restore him to power."
•  Done "Napoleon helped to remove Ferdinand VII from power" - "to" is unneeded.
•  Done "So far, Spain was an ally of France against Britain, but at this point the Spanish resistance changed sides and allied with Britain against France" - "Until then, Spain had been an ally of France against Britain, but at this point the Spanish resistance changed sides and allied with Britain against France"
•  Done The last two paragraphs in "International causes" are completely unreferenced; this needs to be fixed.
• "The Junta of Seville was eventually defeated, and was replaced by another Junta located in Cádiz."

National causes

•  Done "couldn't " - could not
•  Done "developed similar amounts of traffic as the legal commerce with Spain"
•  Done "the ones who were benefited from the prices of the smuggled products" - "the ones who benefited from the prices of the smuggled products"
•  Done Again, this paragraph has few inline citations. The last sentence certainly needs referencing; are you saying everything from "Buenos Aires" was on a single page?
  • Perhaps not on a single page, but yes on a single chapter. All the books I have checked about the topic list those events among the causes and with a summary of this type, with varying levels of detail.
    • Then cite the individual pages where they appear, don't say a single page covers it all when you know it doesn't. Ironholds (talk) 04:34, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
•  Done "In the political organization " - "In the political structure"
•  Done "Despite all of them were considered Spanish, and that there wasn't a legal distinction between criollos and peninsulares" - "Despite the fact that all of them were considered Spanish, and that there was no legal distinction between criollos and peninsulares"
•  Done "partisan of becoming autonomous from Spain and partisan of keeping things the way they were" - partisan?
•  Done "By the ending of 1808 he" - "By the end of 1808 the"
•  Done ", with the country being attacked by Napoleon, and rooted in Brazil" - what does this mean? What country? rooted?
  • To say that the Royal Family of Portugal left Portugal would be redundant; when a subject is mentioned more than once in a same sentence it is replaced by "it", "he", "she" or other contractions. This part talks about the departure of the nobility from Portugal to Brazil described at the previous section, but with the focus on the local consequences of such departure that were among the causes of the May Revolution. "Rooted" is a term that was advised to me at the help desk, to describe that the Royal Family was not intending to stay there as a temporal measure for returning to Portugal later, but they decided instead to live at Brazil permanently (which can be confirmed by checking the history of colonial Brazil).
    • You were misinformed. "rooted" is the wrong tense, so is completely inappropriate here. I'd suggest "settled" instead. Ironholds (talk) 04:34, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
•  Done "arrived to South America" - "arrived in South America"
•  Done "despite regulations against such thing" - "despite regulations prohibiting this"
•  Done "arouse strong public rejection" - "caused strong public dislike"
•  Done "Charlotte to be able to prevent separatism" - "Charlotte able to prevent separatism"

Prelude

Resolved comments

* Done "Sobremonte resume government, who had fled to Córdoba with the public treasury" Sobremonte, who had fled to Córdoba with the public treasury, remain as governor"  Done "He did so following a law from the time of Pedro de Cevallos, which determined that in the case of a foreign attack the treasury had to be kept safe, but this action made him be seen as a coward by the population" - "Although he fled in line with a law which required the treasury be kept safe in the case of a foreign attack, he was seen as a coward by the population". Done, but keeping the mention to Pedro de Cevallos to stick to NPOV MBelgrano (talk) 12:39, 10 February 2010 (UTC)  Done Link Real Audience and Sobremonte, remove the "main article: Santiago de Liniers" bit; it isn't the main article.  Done "like Martín de Álzaga or Francisco Javier de Elío. " - "such as Martín de Álzaga and Francisco Javier de Elío."  Done "or resume government" - "or resume governing"  Done "Despite the clear statements of Liniers" - "Despite the clear statements by Liniers"  Done "or his refusing to accept Joseph Bonaparte as King" - "and his refusal to accept Joseph Bonaparte as King"  Done "his political enemies arouse suspicions of Liniers secretly plotting to do otherwise" - "his political enemies created rumours that he was plotting to accept Bonaparte"  Done "Javier de Elío created a Junta in Montevideo, which would make a strong scrutiny of all the orders coming from Buenos Aires and reserving the right to ignore them, but without denying the authority of the Viceroy as such or declaring themselves independent." - "Javier de Elío created a Junta in Montevideo, which would scrutinise all the orders coming from Buenos Aires and reserved the right to ignore them, without openly denying the authority of the Viceroy or declaring themselves independent."  Done Again, Liniers Government is incredibly under-referenced.

•  Done "The Spanish merchant based in Buenos Aires Martín de Álzaga and his followers set off a riot in order to remove Liniers" - "Martín de Álzaga, a Spanish merchant based in Buenos Ares, set off a riot with his followers in order to remove Liniers". When was this riot, exactly?
  • It is described right after that sentence. MBelgrano (talk) 12:30, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
•  Done "Spanish militia and a group of people summoned by the bell of the council supported the rebellion" - "the Spanish militia and a group of people summoned by the bell of the council supported the rebellion"
•  Done You've capitalised Criollos in some places but not others. Please choose whichever one you like best and standardise.
  • Ive used criollos because that is how it is used in its own article on wikipedia. Mephiston999 (talk) 13:25, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
    • You've used criollos, and also Criollos; note the capitalisation. Pick one or the other and use it exclusively. Ironholds (talk) 06:03, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
•  Done "to get the independence" - "to gain independence"
•  Done "judicial process" - what judicial process? A court case, some form of judicial review? "judicial process" is incredibly vague.
  • Changed it to legal case, which is the name given in Wikipedia to the concept. MBelgrano (talk) 12:42, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
•  Done "European Spanish" - "European Spaniards"
•  Done "causing the dispersion of the insurgents" - "causing the insurgents to disperse"
•  Done "Rio de la Plata providing replacement of Liniers by Don Baltasar Hidalgo de Cisneros" - "Rio de la Plata, providing a replacement for Liniers in the form of Don Baltasar Hidalgo de Cisneros"
•  Done "proposed Liniers to resist his removal and reject the appointment of Cisneros" - "that he proposed that Liniers resist his removal and reject the appointment of Cisneros"
•  Done "because Europe " - "because Spain", surely? I highly doubt Prussia knew or cared, for example.
  • Done, but are you sure about this approach? To keep mentioning Spain over and over again (or any other subject) can make the text become repetitive, so I try to use or seek pronouns and synonyms whenever possible MBelgrano (talk) 12:57, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
•  Done "conflicting reports about the politicians or the nature of the events taking place" - "conflicting reports about the politicians and the nature of the events taking place"
• Who is "he"?
  • Cisneros, of course. Who else would be, given the previous sentence, delaying the arrival to Buenos Aires? MBelgrano (talk) 13:39, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
• "pardoned those responsible for them" - responsible for the coup?
  • Yes. It comes from the context: Liniers disarmed the rebel troops and sentenced their leaders, and later Cisneros rearms such troops and "pardoned those responsible for them". I think it's clear enough that "them" are the disarmed troops, "those" are their leaders, and "pardoned" means that their sentences were revoked MBelgrano (talk) 13:39, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
•  Done "requested Cisneros to set aside free trade, to which he agreed to keep their support." - "asked Cisneros to set aside free trade, which he agreed to do in order to keep their support."
•  Done The English? No such nation, matey, for about 100 years at that point.
• "invoking the character of allies against Napoleon in Spain and Britain" - what exactly does this mean?
  • The Peninsular War, where Britain was allied with Spain against France, is already described among the causes. At this point of the article it can be safely asumed by the reader that when he reads about the Britain / Spain alliance, it's the one described before unless noted otherwise MBelgrano (talk) 13:54, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
•  Done "Cisneros finally decided to grant an extension of free trade, which would end on May 19, 1810." - reference.
•  Done "encourage " - "encouraged"
•  Done "oppose" - "opposed"
•  Done "may" - "might"
•  Done "makes " - "made"
•  Done "that it was sufficient for Buenos Aires just a formal pretext for the outbreak of the revolution" - no idea what this means. Could you clarify?
  • Reworded MBelgrano (talk) 15:16, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
•  Done " So in April 1810, Cornelio Saavedra expresses to his friends" - "On April 1810, Cornelio Saavedra expressed to his friends"
•  Done The quote would be hard-pushed to be considered a sentence. Block quotes are for just that; blocks. A single line can be expressed within the text without the need to break everything up.
•  Done "Discontent with Spanish officials also expressed within the inner lands" - "Discontent with Spanish officials was also expressed within the inner lands"
•  Done What are the inner lands?
  • The lands deep inside the continent, far away from the coast and the ports (an important detail at an age when Europe-America travel was done only by sea). The expression is used to set them apart from Buenos Aires and Montevideo, being mentioned at the previous sections MBelgrano (talk) 15:56, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
    • Make that clear; many readers are unlikely to understand what you mean. Ironholds (talk) 06:04, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
•  Done "Ramón García de León y Pizarro, accused of supporting a Portuguese protectorate" - ", Ramón García de León y Pizarro, and accused him of supporting a Portuguese protectorate"
•  Done "The military command fell to Colonel Juan Antonio Alvarez de Arenales. The civil authority remained in an uncertain situation, so that was partially exercised by the same Arenales." - "The military command fell to Colonel Juan Antonio Alvarez de Arenales; due to uncertainty as to who was in civil control, Arenales also exercised some civil powers"
•  Done "On 16 July in the city of La Paz other revolutionary movement led by Colonel Pedro Domingo Murillo and other patriots forced the resignation to the governor mayor Tadeo Davila and the Bishop of La Paz, Remigio de la Santa y Ortega." - "On 16 July, in the city of La Paz, a second revolutionary movement led by Colonel Pedro Domingo Murillo and other individuals forced the governor, Tadeo Davila and the Bishop of La Paz, Remigio de la Santa y Ortega, to resign."
•  Done "The power went to the council until the "Junta Tuitiva de los Derechos del Pueblo" was formed, headed by Murillo." - what council?
  • More detailed wording provided MBelgrano (talk) 15:56, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
•  Done "revolution of La Paz was openly proclaimed independent" - "revolution of La Paz was openly declared independence"
•  Done The paragraphs "discontent" and "On 16 July" are at most two sentences each. Merge them together.
•  Done Both paragraphs are also completely unreferenced.
•  Done "argue that the one at Chuquisaca was a revolution for independence, citing as its main foundation the Syllogism of Chuquisaca that proposed self-determination." - reference. If you're saying "historians believe opinions X and Y" you better be able to source it.
•  Done "beat these movements" means?
  • Reworded MBelgrano (talk) 23:10, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
•  Done "the La Paz" - "the La Paz revolution"
•  Done "pardoned from prison received after his coup" - "pardoned from prison after his coup"
•  Done Link Castelli.
•  Done "the La Paz was bloodily crushed by an army sent from Peru, while that of Chuquisaca was suppressed by troops sent by the Viceroy Cisneros" needs referencing

May Week

•  Done Is it normally called "may week" by academicsbeginning with the confirmation of the fall of the Junta of Seville and ending with the dismissal of Cisneros and the confirmation of the Primera Junta.[36]"
•  Done "On May 14, arrived at the port of Buenos Aires British war schooner HMS Mistletoe from Gibraltar, with newspapers from previous January announcing the dissolution of the Junta of Seville." - "On May 14, the British war schooner HMS Mistletoe arrived at Buenos Ares from Gibraltar, carrying newspapers from the previous January announcing the dissolution of the Junta of Seville."
•  Done "some members" - members of what?
  • Members of the Junta mentioned in the previous sentence. Remarked it to avoid confussion MBelgrano (talk) 16:04, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
•  Done "by the abdications of Bayonne" - "through the abdications of Bayonne"
•  Done "On the 17th they met in Buenos Aires matching news arrived in Montevideo on July 13 in the British frigate HMS John Paris, adding that members of the Junta of Seville had been refused" - absolutely no idea what this means
•  Done Ship names need to be italicised
•  Done "but one of them came at the hands " - "but one of them came into the hands"
•  Done "They were responsible for spreading the word, which challenged the legitimacy of the Viceroy, appointed by the fallen Junta." use "news" not "word". Needs citing.
  • Change word to news, still needs referencing. Mephiston999 (talk) 14:30, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
•  Done What is the regiment of Patricians? Link.
•  Done "gain a decisive" - "gained a decisive"
•  Done "proposed to depose the viceroy by force, but Castelli and Saavedra rejected such idea" - "proposed to overthrow the viceroy by force, but Castelli and Saavedra rejected this idea"
•  Done Link "Open Cabildo"
•  Done "Viceroy Cisneros attempted to conceal the news from Spain" - I doubt he attempted to keep Spain in the dark about the news. "Viceroy Cisneros attempted to conceal the news from the people".
•  Done "however, the rumor had already spread throughout the whole city" - "however, the rumor had already spread throughout Buenos Aires"
•  Done "calm down the criollos ("Creoles")" - you've already explained the "creole" point. Again, standardise. Either capitalise or don't, and either italicise or don't. Make your mind up.
•  Done "open cabildo " - here you haven't capitalised. In all other instances, you have. Standardise.
•  Not done The grammar of that quote is horrible. Are you sure you copied it correctly?
  • It's antique Spanish, and it's also "horrible" under current Spanish grammar as well. Being a quote, I tried to avoid translating it "well" but being as faithful as possible to the original quote. The reference includes the original quote in Spanish as well, so that other users that know both languages can check it as well and improve the quote if they consider it possible (but always on the grounds that being faithful to the original should take precedence over grammar correctness). --MBelgrano (talk) 16:28, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
    • That constitutes original research. If there is not an independent translation of a quote then don't attempt to translate it in the artcile. Just summarise in good plain English, if a good translation can't be provided. Jezhotwells (talk) 23:59, 16 February 2010 (UTC) Jezhotwells (talk) 03:11, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
•  Done After spending the night on the subject, in the morning Belgrano and Saavedra met with senior alcalde Juan Jose de Lezica, and Castelli with the procurator, Julián de Leyva, calling for support of the Cabildo. They wanted to request the Viceroy to open an open Cabildo, saying that if not granted, it would be requested by the population itself." - "After spending the night discussing the subject, Belgrano and Saavedra met with senior alcalde Juan Jose de Lezica, and Castelli the procurator, Julián de Leyva, calling for support of the Cabildo. They wanted to ask Viceroy to open a Cabildo, saying that if not granted, it would be demanded by the population itself."
•  Done Link alcalde
•  Done This May 19 section needs to be referenced
•  Done "execution"?
  • I have checked english dictionaries (see here), and the word is correct. "Execution" is not just the death penalty, but also a law term meaning to take a certain legal mandate into effect. MBelgrano (talk) 03:20, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
    • I know. I'm a law student. It's rarely used, and without a legal context is likely to confuse people. Ironholds (talk) 03:26, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
•  Done "seven o'clock in the afternoon" doesn't exist. Evening or morning.
•  Done "but the Colonel Cornelio Saavedra, head of Patricios Regiment, responded on behalf of all the natives saying" - "but Colonel Cornelio Saavedra, head of the Patricios Regiment, responded on behalf of all the natives saying"
•  Done "Castelli and Martín Rodríguez where sent " - "Castelli and Martín Rodríguez were sent"
•  Done "open cabildo", capitalise all or none.
•  Done "forced him to decide at once a definitive answer" - "forced him to give a definitive answer"
•  Done "for the making of the open cabildo. It would be celebrated the following May 22." - "to the creation of the open cabildo. It would be opened on May 22."
•  Done Reference the "After a short private discussion" sentence and successive ones.
•  Done "That same night there was a theater play on the theme of tyranny, called "Rome Saved"" - "on the same night there was a theatre production on the theme of tyranny, called "Rome Saved""
•  Done "The police chief tried to convince the actor not to appear and, with the excuse of being ill, the work should be replaced with "Misanthropy and repentance," by the German poet Kotzebue." - "The police chief tried to convince the actor not to appear and, with the excuse of being ill, to replace the work with "Misanthropy and repentance," by the German poet Kotzebue."
•  Done Link Kotzebue
• Was there only one actor?
  • The sources I have checked (including reports from the time) only talk about him. MBelgrano (talk) 16:26, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
•  Done "This scene flared the revolutionary spirits, which led to frenzied applause to the work. Juan José Paso stood up and shouted "¡Viva Buenos Aires libre!" ("Long live free Buenos Aires!"), which produced a small fight with other people present." - reference
•  Done "At 3, the council" - "At 3pm, the council"
•  Done What council?
•  Done "loudly demanded to be convene an Open Cabildo and the resign of Viceroy Cisneros" - "loudly demanded the convention of an Open Cabildo and the resignation of Viceroy Cisneros"
•  Done"the lapel of their jackets a white ribbon " - "the lapel of their jackets bore a white ribbon"
•  Done "were highlighted Domingo French and Antonio Beruti." - "were Domingo French and Antonio Beruti."
•  Done "The people distrusted Cisneros and did not believe he was going to keep his word to allow the making of the Open Cabildo the next day. The liquidator Leiva failed to calm the crowd by ensuring that it would be held as planned. People settled down and dispersed through the intervention of Cornelio Saavedra, head of the Regiment of Patricians, who said that the claims of the Infernal Legion had their military support." - reference.
•  Done "teammate"?
•  Done "only attended by about 251" - "only about 251 attended"
•  Done "All the notorious religious and civil people were present" - who? Why were they notorious?
  • Yes, the text is "vague", but it's intended to be so. You can find in the first reference of the section the records of the meeting, listing one by one the people that were present (which answer "who?") They were the lawyers, generals, priests, traders, office holders, civil authorities, merchants, etc, of the city. In short: anyone who was "notorious" for X or Y reason, could participate in an open cabildo (this one or any other), it was not an event restricted to people of some specific condition, such as "generals of ground forces with at least X years of service" of something like that. MBelgrano (talk) 04:00, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
    • Again, you're misusing a word. Notorious does not, in its day to day use, mean "important", although the original meaning was "note-worthy". The word "notorious" is commonly used to refer to those who are note-worthy for bad or eyebrow-raising reasons; serial killers and murderers could be considered "notorious", for example. Priests, not so much. Ironholds (talk) 06:52, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

 Done "but had no precedents of being applied in case law rather than in theoric fields" - "but had no precedents of being applied in case law"

•  Done "There were two main opposing positions" - "There were two main positions"
•  Done"peninsular Spanish" - "the peninsular Spanish"
•  Done The paragraph starting "There were two main opposing positions" needs to be referenced.
•  Done The paragraph starting "Juan José Castelli was the main orator of the revolutionaries" needs to be referenced.
•  Done The paragraph starting "Pascual Ruiz Huidobro stated that" needs to be referenced.
•  Done "participation in the debate of the other cities of the viceroyalty" - "the participation of other cities in the debate"
•  Done "as much sovereignties " - "as many sovereignties "
•  Done"The purpose of such point of view" - "The purpose of such a point of view"
•  Not done Remove the picture of Cornelio Saavedra
  • Why? Overall, he's one of the involved people with the highest political power (not for nothing he became president of the Junta), so there should be an image of him somewhere in the article. And the image is provided at that specific point because it is one where his political strenght is more notorious: his proposal in the Open Cabildo had won. MBelgrano (talk) 03:20, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
    • Because his image breaks up the prose, displaces a header and makes the article look like shit. Remove it or move it, up to you, but it can't stay there. Ironholds (talk) 05:17, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
      • I have changed the image to one with Saavedra watching to the left (or with his head pointing to the left) so that it could be placed at the right. I have checked up to a 1280x1024 screen resolution, and it does not overlap with the other sections MBelgrano (talk) 03:27, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
•  Done "The priest Juan Nepomuceno Solá thought the command was given to the Cabildo" - "The priest Juan Nepomuceno Solá thought that the command should be given to the Cabildo". This needs to be referenced. It is far too short to be its own paragraph; is there any reason to keep it as such? If not, move it into a different one.
•  Done "deems appropriate" - "deemed appropriate"
•  Done "At the time of the vote, Castelli's position was coupled with that of Saavedra." - reference.
•  Done "Manuel Belgrano was near a window, and in case of problems with the regular development of the Open Cabildo he would give a signal by waiving a white cloth. The people gathered in the Plaza, in that case, would have forced their way into the Cabildo. However, there were no problems and this alternative plan was not implemented." - reference.
•  Done "The debate took all the day" - "The debate took all day day"
•  Done "and therefore whether it ended on May 22 or May 23"
•  Done "and historians are divided in this issue" - reference.
•  Done "was distributed as follows" - "were distributed as follows"
•  Done "At dawn of day 23" - "At dawn on May 23"
•  Done "After completing the open council notices were placed at various points throughout the city that reported the creation of the Junta and the call to deputies from the provinces, and called to refrain from attempting actions contrary to public policy." - reference. Is there any reason why this is its own paragraph?
•  Done The paragraph starting "On the 24th the council," needs to be referenced.
•  Done This paragraph is needlessly short. Merge it into the next one.
•  Done "on the motives for this action." - "for the motives of this action."
• I'm going to get a second opinion on this, since I don't have the time or energy to review the entire thing on my own. Quite frankly I'd be tempted to just fail it if I hadn't seen so much work into it, but we'll see what this second reviewer says

Misc

• Not GA criteria, just best practice according to the Manual of Style; images should alternate. Images of individuals looking left should be on the right of the page, and vice versa.

2nd opinion

Overall _ the article is in places very badly written, appearing to be a poor translation from Spanish. Presently it is not good enough for GA status on those grounds alone. Jezhotwells (talk) 00:04, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Fair does. Would you recommend I just quickfail it, then? Ironholds (talk) 01:39, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Well, I would see if the nominator is prepared to rewrite in good plain English first. Jezhotwells (talk) 01:57, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

If you want me to rewrite the complete article, then go ahead, it isn't something that may be done in a couple of days. However, I don't agree with the comment of translated quotes being original research: Wikipedia:No original research#Translations clearly allows to provide self-made translations when there are no published translations. I have provided the original quotes on footnotes, as requested by the policy. MBelgrano (talk) 02:16, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Who said it was original research? Ironholds (talk) 02:19, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Jezhotwells, in the "May week" section MBelgrano (talk) 03:05, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

OK, I withdraw that but the translate is not good English. Jezhotwells (talk) 03:10, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:May Revolution/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: •Felix• ^T 20:33, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

• 1. Well-written:

(a) the prose is clear and concise, and the spelling and grammar are correct (b) it complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation.

Note: Vastly improved from previous review. Great job, nominator!

• 2. Factually accurate and verifiable:

Note: Overall the referencing is good. However, there were a few points for improvement that I noticed. For the 'In popular cultural section' there seem to be no references for the statements in the third paragraph or the list half of the fifth paragraph.

Also, notice this section: "The Assembly of Year XIII was intended to declare independence, but failed to do so because of other political conflicts between its members. However, it suppressed mention of Ferdinand VII in official documents. The supreme directors held an ambivalent attitude until the declaration of independence of 1816."

There is no citation for the opinion (ambivalent attitude) in the last sentence above.

Also, Under “Friday May, 25” There are some massive paragraphs with a lot of information and facts but only one or no citations.

Last but not least, since I do not have access to some of the printed resources I cannot check, but do all of the non-English sources have translations in the references of footnotes? It seems that some of the same sources have translations for some references but not for others. See WP:NOENG

• 3. Broad in its coverage:

(a) it addresses the main aspects of the topic

(b) it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style). ::Honestly this article is very, very long. It comes in at well over 100kb and over 30 pages when printed. While an article of this significance needs to be thorough and complete, this article I feel is a little too long; see Wikipedia:Article size. There are several sentences and statements throughout the article that could be deleted as they are repetitive, unnecessary, or extraneous. Perhaps some information in this article can be moved to other pages? Normally, splits are appropriate for very long articles like this, but I think that in this case simply shortening the article will be much easier and more appropriate. I will try to get a second opinion on this.

Still might need to be trimmed down if you aspire to FA status, but acceptable for now. •Felix• ^T 19:16, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

• 4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without bias.

• 5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.

• 6 Images:

(a) images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content;

(b) images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions.

Decisions

Putting article on hold for seven days or until all points are addressed. •Felix• ^T 00:26, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm working on it MBelgrano (talk) 11:57, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Done. I have completed all missing references. I have replaced the "ambivalent attitude" thing by a more specific explanation. I have also moved some portions to other articles, but have in mind that the size you saw (147,852 bytes) includes the complex references. Check here, the bare text of the article, without references, wiki code, images, lists, etc. The size was nearly 73 KB, and with my recent moves it has been reduced to 65 KB, not very far away from the accepted values. Have in mind as well that Argentine readers may accept less than this, because most of this is basic knowledge from the school, but most non-Argentine readers are unlikely to know anything about any of the things explained here (save for the international context), and the article should still need to be understood on its own. MBelgrano (talk) 02:20, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Good work! I am awarding this article GA status. •Felix• ^T 19:16, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the review, and for pointing the issues that needed correction MBelgrano (talk) 19:31, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Quotes

The footnotes included quotes and translations of the books from which I took the info, as most of them are in Spanish and may be hard to get outside Argentina. This was done according to WP:NOENG, but as two users have complained at the 2º FAC, and a recent discussion at Wikipedia talk:Verifiability/Archive 46#Should WP:V say that non-English text and translation should be provided in a footnote? (March 2011) opposed making it mandatory, I will remove them. I left a copy of the last revision before start removing them at User:Cambalachero/May Revolution, in case someone needs to check a particular reference (have in mind that the number of a specific reference may change if some references are added or removed from the article, so look for the sentence and author instead) Cambalachero (talk) 20:40, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Copyedit July 2011

Points noted that go beyond the scope of a copyedit:

• In May_Revolution#International_causes: "the colonies were restricted to trade only with their own metropolis": the word "metropolis" makes no sense in this context and the source gives no clue as to what could be meant. The most it says is that Spain might be unwilling to open this market, a much weaker statement. I have tagged it. --Stfg (talk) 14:59, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Well, "Metropolis" is a word that, besides the modern meaning (a huge city), has another meaning in a historical context: a city or country with colonies. It is mentioned at the metropolis article. In the context of the phrase, Spain is the metropolis of its overseas colonies, and the word helps to avoid being repetitive.

Thanks, I didn't know that. But I think the use of this term is inappropriate here. It's too specialised for an encyclopedia rather than a textbook. By the way, the colonialism article uses the term metropole, rather than metropolis, but I think it unwise to use that term too. It's not well known and we can't usefully link to the metropole article because it talks only about the British empire (erroneously, I believe). The wiktionary definition of metropole uses the term "parent state", and I've used that for now. This allows me to remove the {{Clarify}} tag, though I still think you're saying something stronger than the source.

(Plese can we keep each bullet here as a separate thread, else things will soon get complicated). --Stfg (talk) 17:34, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Better yet, I will stand aside for the moment, and wait until you end the review. Then, I will fix, clarify or explain each thing that's needed. Discussions in bulleted ideas get out of control at the 4º or 5º reply. Cambalachero (talk) 03:04, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

OK --Stfg (talk) 11:01, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

• The Kaufmann reference is available in Google Books, but no link has been provided to it. I expect the same will be found for many other of the references. Such links are very desirable, preferably as page links. --Stfg (talk) 14:59, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

As for google books, is that a good idea? I did not include links because WP:ELNEVER forbids to links to sites hosting copyright violations under any circumstances, and Google Books is already having copyright-related problems for this (see Google Books#Copyright infringement, fair use and related issues). Cambalachero (talk) 15:46, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Fair enough. I don't thinkk the How-to would have been included in a Wikipedia Content Guideline if this were a real issue, but I agree it's best to be safe about this, and it's voluntary anyway. I will find the ISBN for the Kaufmann book and put it in though. --Stfg (talk) 11:01, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Now done. The 1951 original has no ISBN, but I've provided that of a 1967 edition I believe to be a reprint - it has the same pagination. This will enable people to locate copies. --Stfg (talk) 19:25, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

• In May_Revolution#National_causes: "A small secret society of criollos, composed of politicians as Manuel Belgrano and Juan José Castelli, and military as Antonio Beruti or Hipólito Vieytes, supported this project". "As" cannot be used like this: do you mean "such as" or "consisting of"? Also, how are we to understand the "or" in ths sentence? --Stfg (talk) 17:34, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

• Same section: "Britain ... had a strong stance in the Portuguese Empire". Stance in what sense? --Stfg (talk) 17:41, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

• In May Revolution#Cisneros government (last paragraph), I've tagged a "he" that could refer either to Cisneros or to Romero. --Stfg (talk) 21:23, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

• Same section: the 1st paragraph says "Álzaga was not freed, but his sentence was commuted to house arrest" but the next paragraph speaks of "the pardon that Martín de Álzaga and others had received after serving a short time in prison". Do the sources contradict each other, or what? If they do, this needs to be pointed up. --Stfg (talk) 21:23, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

• In May_Revolution#May_week, big paragraph: "the most recent newpapers reported that members of the Supreme Central Junta had been refused". "Refused" is meaningless here and I can't figure out what is meant. By the way, the first half of this paragraph lacks citations. See also the next bullet --Stfg (talk) 11:01, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

(re "refused") OK, I found "rechezados" in the Spanish article. "Dismissed" will do. --Stfg (talk) 19:00, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

• While trying to figure out what the sentence in the previous bullet was saying, I went back to May_Revolution#International_causes, where the last sentence reads "The Supreme Central Junta was eventually defeated and replaced by a Regency Council based in Cadiz.[11]". Ref 11 is Shumway, p. 19 and this page in Shumway says nothing like it. Shumway's book doesn't use the expression "Regency Council" at all and doesn't mention the Junta of Seville as far as I can discover. What p.19 says is "The Spanish Cortes, or parliament, refused Joseph's rule and formed a government in exile in Cádiz". Our article makes no use of the words Cortes or parliament at all. I have no idea what to make of this. Finally, the sentence in May_Revolution#International_causes says that the Supreme Central Junta was defeated, while the lead section says that it dissolved itself. They can't both be right. --Stfg (talk) 11:01, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

• That's now two verifications failed out of two attempted, so I've tagged the article with {{cite check}}. Sorry, but I think it's needed. --Stfg (talk) 19:00, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

• in May_Revolution#Friday.2C_May_18_and_Saturday.2C_May_19: "Coffeehouse of Catalans" and the "Fonda of Nations": better to provide their Spanish names (in italics). Fonda is not English anyway (= tavern or inn). --Stfg (talk) 19:00, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

• Sunday, May 20: "secured the keys of all entrances": did they lock the doors, or else how did they "secure the keys"? --Stfg (talk) 19:00, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

• Monday, May 21: "At 3:00 pm, preparations were started for the cabildo." The paragraph does not make sense like this. What the Spanish wikipedia article says is: "A las tres, el Cabildo inició sus trabajos de rutina...". I have translated that more closely, as the paragraph now does make sense. --Stfg (talk) 19:00, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

• Friday, May 25: ",,, and made the members responsible for any changes". Perhaps made the Junta responsible...(?) And responsible for changes to what? --Stfg (talk) 18:58, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

• Consequence, 1st paragraph: "Until then, the conception of the common good prevailed: while royal authority was fully respected, if an instruction from the crown of Spain was considered detrimental to the common good of the local population, it was half-met or simply ignored.[16]" Ref 16 is Shumway page 3, which makes no mention of common good. It interprests no cumplo as meaning "do whatever I want". It is really important not to load your own conceptions on to the sources like this. --Stfg (talk) 19:25, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

• Historical perspectives, paragraph 3: Was Bartolomé Mitre really a romantic author of the 1830s? He was only born in 1821! --Stfg (talk) 19:25, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

• Revolutionary purposes: "The purpose of the deception would have been to gain time to strengthen the position of the patriotic cause and avoid reactions that may have led to a revolution, on the grounds that monarchical authority was still being respected and that no revolution had taken place." This makes no sense, since a revolution has taken place. I have changed it to "The purpose of such a deception would have been to gain time to strengthen the position of the patriotic cause and avoid reactions that may have led to a counter-revolution, by making it appear that monarchical authority was still being respected and that no revolution had taken place." Is this what is meant? If not, please clarify. --Stfg (talk) 19:25, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

• Same section: '... he expressed support for the Junta, but under the condition that "...the behavior is consistent, and that [the] Capital [is] retained on behalf of Mr. Dn. Ferdinand VII and his legitimate successors."[121]'. Ref 121 is Kaufmann, p. 59, but nothing like it is there. In fact, the phrase "legitimate successors" does not occur in the whole book (search attempted in Google books). --Stfg (talk) 19:25, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

• The same section and the next suddenly switch from the article's style of short footnotes referring to full citations in the Bilbliography section, to placing full citations inline. This needs to be corrected before re-submitting for FA. --Stfg (talk) 19:25, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

• One difficulty for the reader of this article is that too many names are mentioned. For example, near the end of May 22 we read:

"The priest Juan Nepomuceno Solá then proposed that provisional command should be given to the Cabildo, until the formation of a governing junta made up of representatives from all populations of the Viceroyalty. His motion was supported by Manuel Alberti, Azcuénaga, Escalada, Argerich (or Aguirre) and others."

and neither Escalada nor Argerich/Aguirre are mentioned again in the article. Why are they notable for the purposes of this article, while the "others" are not? I have not made any changes to things of this nature, but you might wish to consider trying to restrict the article to naming people who did something significant in their own right during the May Revolution, beyond merely supporting or voting for what others did. --Stfg (talk) 09:30, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the review, I have started working with some of the things pointed. Some clarifications:

• Martín de Álzaga was not legally freed, but being sentenced to house arrest, with the "house" being the mansion of one of the wealthiest men in the city (rather than a common jail), is basically the same thing; this kind of men do not really need to leave their homes to manage their business. In any case, the later point still stands: it was a very soft sentence, compared with the beheads at the Upper Peru for a similar action, and the americans resented Cisneros for this. I will clarify this.
• The "Regency Council" is the "Consejo de Regencia", which called later for the formation of the Cortes of Cadiz. The problem here is that there are only books in Spanish about this topic, English books mention all this issues in the broadest of terms. I have unified all mentions to this body as "Council of Regency", as mentioned in Supreme Central and Governing Junta of the Kingdom#The Council of Regency of Spain and the Indies. As for the defeat, there is no contradiction: the Junta was a Spanish government body, defended by Spanish armies, but not an army itself. The defenders of the Junta were defeated, and the Junta dissolved itself as a result (meaning, they did that before the victors ordered them to do so). Again, I will clarify.
• "secured the keys of all entrances" means to collect and have with themselves all the physical keys of the fort, so that they couldn't be trapped inside, and in case of a trap they could leave by an door they could reach. I changed "secure" for "seize".
• As for Mitre, the mentioned authors were more related to the 1830 as a "generation" rather than as a temporal time frame (like hippies with the 1960s). This literary movement, which started in 1937, was joined years later by Mitre, who was the one who took the ideas of the group to their most prominent expression. Mitre did not write the book in the 1830, but did not came out of nowhere to do so. However, it may be unadvisable to clarify too much here, as it must be a summary of nformation more detailed at the fork. Mitre is considered part of the "37' Generation", even if not as a founding member, so the text as it is is not really saying inaccurate things.
• As for the "Mask of Ferdinand VII", a change of government is not in itself a revolution, it has to involve a paradigm shift, or a change in the type of government itself. For a colony where everything (not just politics, but also economy and society) is marked by the dependence to the King, cutting relations with the king is a revolution. So, when I explain that the doctrine of the "Mask of Ferdinand VII" says that the Junta claimed that they did not do any revolution, it means that they claimed that the change of government was only that, a change of government, and that everything would stay as always; while secretly plotting the revolutionary changes to declare independence and replace the monarchy with a republic. Yes, I know that the doctrine itself makes little sense, but that's another thing. I did not came up with that explanation, I'm just describing it.

Thanks again for taking the time for the review, I will work with all the points mentioned Cambalachero (talk) 02:50, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, it's looking good so far. In the case of Martín de Álzaga, it may just be the word "pardon" that is slightly problematic. I think you tell his story clearly enough.

I shall stand aside in turn and wait to see what you do now, but will keep watching and we can discuss when you're done. Regards, Simon. --Stfg (talk) 09:14, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Not italicizing "cabildo"

This is primarily an informational note to anyone exmining this article's compliance with WP:MOS. While copyediting I considered italicising the terms "cabildo" (when used generically, as opposed to the expression "the Cabildo") and "open cabildo", but did not, becuase a search for these terms on Google Books and Google Scholar seemed to show that the literature doesn't italicise either. --Stfg (talk) 19:37, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

I know it sounds "Spanish", as it is a Spanish word after all, but I searched for "Cabildo" at Dictionary.com, and seems to be an accepted English word as well. Cambalachero (talk) 20:14, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

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Date format

Hello. I'd like to create a consensus about changing the date format of this artice to DMY (e.g. 25 May 1810 instead of May 25, 1810, as that is what is used in Spanish and most of our other articles about Argentine history.--Marginataen (talk) 12:30, 1 December 2024 (UTC)